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from Spotify Studios.
This is dissect on today's special episode.
We're taking you behind the scenes of the hit music podcast mogul I'm your host.
Cool Kushner.
If you're a fan of dissect,
chances are you like hip hop.
If you like hip hop,
you're gonna love the podcast mogul Mogul.
Just show about hip hop's most iconic moments.
Told by the people who live them.
Season two Mogul explores the birth of Southern hip hop through the rise and fall of the rap group.
The two live crew.
The host of Season two of Mogul is Brandon Jinx Jenkins,
a journalist,
cultural commentator,
photographer and D.
J.
I've been a fan of Brandon's work for a few years now,
and I'm really excited to be speaking with them today about Mogul season to What's up,
Brandon?
Hey,
what's going on?
It's kind of weird to have listened to you do That s o many times,
like,
just as a fan,
and then sing You do it in front of me.
Yes,
I was just saying it's the first time I've done it in front of anyone.
So this is tight fellow weird,
uh,
something before we get into far into our conversation.
I want to start by playing a clip of mobile because I think it's important to give listeners and understanding of how dynamic the show storytelling really is.
So just for a little bit of context for the Clipper,
about to hear the years 1990 and the two live crew's album As Nasty as They Wanna Be,
was just ruled obscene in Broward County,
Florida,
and was,
therefore illegal to sell and what we're about to hear.
Details.
A record store owner getting arrested for selling the album just two days after the ruling.
So let's take a listen.
One day,
when Charles was at his registered taking care of business,
a guy walked up to him asking to buy a copy of two live Crew's is nasty.
They want to be.
You had a beard like me older guy,
probably in his forties or fifties.
He came in,
made the preachers,
and I'm thinking nothing of it.
Charles sold him a copy of the album,
but then the guy turned around gave a signal.
Within seconds.
A group of officers first in the Charles Shop customer was an undercover,
and they came directly at me You know,
you don't have time to do anything,
but they came with their guns out.
Rush me at the Kala.
They first them down,
pulled his hands behind his back and cuffed him in his own store.
I'm thinking,
Wow.
Really,
really,
really.
For record.
You arrested me for a record.
Yeah.
Mr Freeman,
we're taking in.
Correct.
Yes,
I was.
I was completely show.
So they had me sitting right at my color,
waiting for Nick Navarro.
Too short acting on tips from officers.
Local TV crews were in Freeman shop when an undercover policeman bought the album.
Sheriff Nick Navarro himself was on the scene taking questions about his successful bust.
This was a challenge to the law,
and we don't accept challenges to the law.
This is a country of laws.
As the officers confiscated Charles stock of two live crew's album news cameras and reporters circled a random to capture the arrest for all to see.
And Charles couldn't understand why of all the records in his shop,
why this one would land him in handcuffs.
I got two albums over there,
three albums over there That's obscene because they're just is dirty and nasty.
to live thing.
This is He was picked up the same week that the two live crew was arrested for their performance at Club Futura.
Now the crew is facing criminal charges.
They'd have to stay in trial,
and if they lost,
they could go to jail.
But for Luke Campbell,
it was about much more than that.
It was about all the artists that will come after him.
It became a big issue to me.
I was like,
Look,
if I don't fight,
then nobody else will be able to do records like this.
You won't be able to have a,
you know,
a little wing,
you won't be able to have a drink.
Sand.
What you say is on the record,
you won't be able to have Ah,
you know,
um,
any artist that you have Kodak Black trick Daddy another them guys,
you know,
use explicit lyrics on the record.
You would be had it because it would be a president.
In a bit of law,
it would be case law that was on the books that prevent those records from happening.
So imagine a world where the most explicit songs your favorite rappers have ever made don't exist.
A world Rick I never turns necks and backs into a celebration of oral sex,
a world where there isn't a whisper song quiet enough to save the Ying yang twins from cops like Sheriff Navarro,
a world where obscenity laws put a stop to juvenile in one of the most iconic Twerk anthems of the 21st century.
Luke knew we had the fight not just for the crew and people like Charles Freeman,
but potentially for the future of freedom of speech for the future of hip hop.
I'm Brandon Jenkins and this is Mogul,
all right,
so that's a great clip.
I think it shows a lot of things about the podcast that I love.
Great sound design,
compelling story.
And that clip really sets the stakes of what this story means to the history of music,
the history of hip hop.
Um,
so I'm wondering,
out of all the iconic moments of hip hop to choose from.
What about the two live crew's story?
Interested you and the team?
And how do you guys kind of finally set along this story when we were first starting this Siri's,
Or I guess I was joining the team.
Really,
This team was established for I got here with the first.
He's with combat Jack.
They were asked me like What are you interested in?
And for me,
it was a lot more contemporary stories,
like one of the ones I pitched was,
Ah,
Dip set my camera on And Jim Jones That's just something that feels so immediate and I think has a lot of drama and really great characters that I know their lineage,
but we're looking two story.
Um,
one of the considerations was sort of like What is the story mean for hip hop and for uncle looking the two live crew?
It's like,
you know,
freedom of speech,
that such a integral part for the world that we live in today and sort of presenting a scenario off.
What would the world be like if there wasn't freedom of speech?
And rappers couldn't say what they wanted,
so that instantly raised the stakes?
Another consideration was that Season one told a story of the life and death of Chris Lady,
and that's inherently in New York story.
It sort of follows the birth of hip hop right like hip hop stars Chris lady starts and he becomes this massive executive.
Hip hop's commercialization rises through the roof,
but it's based in New York's You getting your characters.
You get a New York soundscape.
It feels the East Coast to do this story and go Miami.
The music's completely different based music rights,
a different tempo,
different artists at work in it.
But also we're telling a story of a city as well.
So Miami has a completely different texture,
different temperature.
They have a different tempo and pace.
The people look different.
It's always great to have local characters involved because they have their accents and you can't duplicate that.
So it was to make sure that we're telling a story that had value in hip hop,
but also maybe to push the boundaries on what our listeners would expect because a lot of people that maybe aren't familiar with hip hop.
But like mogul and just like podcasts in general,
um,
people can think that hip hop is one note that its you know,
its East Coast.
Or maybe today they think it's just Atlanta.
I don't know.
Yeah,
yeah,
that's what I grew what's great about season one and season to,
um,
and what I really love about season two is just that,
like it tells a kind of untold story of the birth of Southern hip hop,
which you don't really ever here.
You know,
you always kind of hear about the the Bronx in New York and that being like,
obviously the birthplace of hip hop in general.
But,
you know,
when hip hop breaks off into these sub genres,
it was really interesting to hear how you know that's the sound of the South was developed.
You know,
I learned so much through this Siri's and yeah,
it was really great.
Um,
so I'm wondering what your level of involvement in the show is.
Um,
you know,
you're obviously host,
but did you have input into how the story was told?
Well,
yeah,
like we were going reporting trips.
So we went down to Miami,
and it's like myself and the producers,
and we're really conducting interviews were we spent a lot of time on the road just trying to take in the environment and understand landscape.
You know,
we're telling these stories,
and people are making references specific spots like,
um,
one thing you hear recurring this season is the pack jam.
So we figure out where that's at or they say,
15th Avenue.
We want to know what 15th Avenue looks like,
who's on 15th Avenue.
So it's a lot of scene setting,
and we all do that.
So we all kind of operating from the same pool of information.
And of course,
we have different perspectives in different lenses.
But then we can kind of compare those things.
This season,
a lot of the writing was done heavily by the production team.
Was like,
Hey,
you're new to this.
Here's kind of how we kinda how we do things,
Um,
and not in the sense of,
like,
this is how it's done more like learn from this processor and with of varying cast of producers,
editors and writers.
It's such a different style from the things I've done previously,
like when I was at complex news,
my prior job.
It's sort of just the facts,
you know,
it's like,
blah,
blah,
blah,
blah,
blah.
This happened.
This is who it happened.
What do you all think?
Go in the comments section and I was describing like I am.
This is a little bit different I mean,
this is like telling a story and that it's just different for me using the facts but taking the listener up and down.
So when we would get in to see a lot of the writing was done up front,
and then it was sort of what do you think?
And total freedoms,
like change things called down to legitimately,
like how I say things or things that I feel like might not represent me or even the culture through,
like a lens that we can all agree upon.
But then also taking a crack at it,
just sort of,
I guess,
for my writing style would be sort of in the studio where we're going through a graph,
and it's like,
Oh,
well,
can we change this?
So yeah,
and sometimes I realize that the writing would actually happen right here in the studio,
on the mic,
cool.
And then I was like,
Okay,
now we have to kind of write that so someone can edit that.
So from interviews,
Teoh pieces of the writing,
for sure,
and I think I had ideas about what would sound cool,
engineering wise,
but I really that's totally out of my realm.
We have a great sound design team with Haley show on Matthew Bowl and they I want to say they see things that people don't,
but they hear things that people don't.
It's a talent that I'm enamored by,
but I just I don't know that it all,
Yeah,
that's definitely an art.
And that's one of my favorite parts about this show.
I think it then we're gonna talk about it a little bit later,
but it's really best in class and sound design and podcasting.
It's like it's the bar,
for sure,
I think.
And,
yeah,
that Haley Shaw and her team,
I feel like you,
really.
I mean,
it makes me,
like,
created,
like make me evaluate my own sound,
design my own show,
um,
all the time and,
you know,
just kind of striving to get close to what they were doing.
You know what I think of it as It's sort of like we can go ahead and film the movie and,
like we can do the best performance and have a great screenplay and the best actors in class.
But once you film it,
you have to do something with the raw footage.
And I say the sound design is maybe comparable is sort of editing in color grading and special effects.
True all at once.
And to have a team that can take what I hope is a good performance in a good screenplay and the right casting.
But to go on at all the other levels onto it,
that's sort of like,
Oh,
this is finished.
Sure,
Yeah,
sure.
Eso you said you conducted interviews.
One of my favorite moments in this season comes on Episode three.
Um,
and it's the character Batman who?
I don't forever got his real name,
but Batman's better.
Um,
so can you kind of give it introduction to who Batman is and was and what it was like interviewing him?
Yeah.
Um,
Jack Thompson is a former lawyer who found issue with the two live crew's music.
He literally transcribed all the lyrics and wrote letters.
It's in them around to every sheriff in Florida,
saying the music was legally have seen.
Yeah,
I mean,
and to me,
that brings up.
You know,
one of the key aspects you touched on about this season is the freedom of speech aspect.
You know this case that the two life crew was involved in basically kind of set.
This precedent going forward in what you can and can't say in hip hop were just in music in general.
But I think one of the interesting things that I found about this show was just like there's,
you know,
there's a freedom of speech aspect,
But then there is like also this kind of complicated dynamic of like what they're actually saying and what?
And it's like I found myself rooting for the freedom of speech aspect,
but then also,
like,
kind of troubled by what they're actually fighting to say,
like the actual content.
And so it was like it became this fight about the right to say it and not whether or not you should say it.
And I feel like that you guys really struck a balance between those two things.
I think you guys handled it really well and you're very up front about that kind of complication.
So I just kind of curious about your guys approach,
Um,
and the conversations you might have had around that dynamic and how you planned on addressing it.
I mean shows like this or products like this,
Just make me rethink a lot of things.
You know,
I grew up in a group in hip hop.
I do have a memory of like,
Do Do Brown playing on my like,
small Sony stereos.
Hot 97 was playing some Miami bass and a group in a world where,
like I had DMX,
is It's dark and hell is hot in my school lunch box.
You know,
he's like draped in dripped in blood.
So,
like I grew up understanding,
accepting a lot of explicit material and not really thinking about a lot of it.
And it's easy to think about a lot of things today contemporary Lee and have issue with things with my adult mind.
But there were things that I guess are sort of my cultural entertainment ingredients that I've never really revisited.
And so,
for sure,
this made me rethink a lot of things that I just hadn't thought about.
And so you want to be fair?
You know,
it's not necessarily about me just cause I'm the one.
I'm hosting it,
but you do want toe fight for hip hop,
but maybe not necessarily fight for some of the people even ended,
or some of the ideas they represent.
And you have to also trust that the audience is smart,
right?
Like that.
They can understand nuance,
that you can speak toe one thing.
And even though that one thing make encapsulates something else that you're maybe just talking about the shell of it and maybe not the whole thing.
So clearly it's the sum of all the parts.
But we try to,
like,
extrapolate the parts and have those conversations amongst each other of what,
What's right,
what's wrong and also our our room and our team is diverse.
Not everyone has a hip hop background on.
Everyone comes from the same place.
We all of our different,
I'm sure personal politics and ideas.
And so that makes the conversation really rich with not conflict.
But,
um,
opposing ideas about what exactly is happening here.
And also,
the more you learn,
it gets trickier,
you know,
because you just learn more about the people that tells Yeah,
yeah,
I feel like that happened.
I came up with Season one of mogul,
too,
you know,
And I think the as it just like you said,
like the deeper you get into any story,
you're gonna find those complications,
and it's like you can't run from them or you're just going to not tell the story,
you know,
in a correct and responsible way.
Eso I really like how you guys address that aspect.
I think it was done really,
really well.
So let's change tempos here.
I wanted to get a little bit more into the musical aspect of the show.
One of my favorite moments is early on in Episode two,
where you guys do this really cool,
really.
Time recreation of the Miami based sound.
Um,
so let's go ahead,
take a listen to that clip and then we'll talk about it.
The way I would describe Miami Bass is Congo's TomTom's combination of regular base and calypso,
with the temple going about 100 in 2100 and 30 beats a minute.
808909 Base kicks.
Cow build.
Infamous Calvin has its,
um,
Hi hats.
Nice snapping snare and I got a snap of pop.
There's one final ingredient thing that really sets this music apart from everything else.
Deep,
booming bass.
Yeah,
baseball.
I love That's it.
That's good.
That's good,
because it's not really Miami bass unless it knocks hard.
Beats getting inside of your brain or past your brain inside of your solar.
Whatever is in their interest amaze you fucking one of funk out.
Have fun.
Yes,
so that is a virtuosic passage of podcasting.
I feel like it is done really,
really well.
Super rich voices and then in the background.
If you're paying attention,
you're actually getting this real time recreation of the Miami based sound from its origins.
And,
you know,
they speed up the tempo in real time,
and then all of a sudden it transforms into Miami Base,
and the base is a really cool aspect of this season,
and I feel like it became like a character in this season.
It shows up at the Pac Jam Club,
where it's like this visceral physical feeling net.
You know,
people are standing in front of the speakers and the walls were sweating,
but then it actually becomes like the hero in this story.
I realized that I was wonder if you could You could talk a little bit about how Bass played a role in that in the court case against two live crew Well,
I'm actually curious what you mean by the hero.
Well,
so that the base,
the base was so high in the recording that the prosecution was presenting like it muddied all their evidence essentially right,
Like it's distorted the sound so much that they had to end up like and correct me if I'm wrong.
But they had to end up after just reading transcriptions instead of actually playing the clips,
because the base just blew out the recordings.
So and then I feel like how toe you know,
Then they were kind of laughed at when they're like reading the transcripts and then,
you know,
they ultimately get a not guilty verdict.
So to me,
that was like like the sore broke moment for Miami bass.
So,
yeah,
if you want to talk a little bit about that so tight that you described it like that because it is.
It's like how poetic writing,
like how poetic that this thing that's made it so beloved and is also like because it's beloved.
It's got a lot of attention.
So it puts it on people's radars and it starts to get taken out of context is the same thing That sort of shields it from people that that if you had been familiar with it or even familiar with that sort of scene,
you would have known that this recording is gonna be tanked,
right?
Like,
yeah.
What are you all thinking?
I mean,
that court case,
that was a deciding moment,
right?
Like that's the scene where everyone's like,
Okay,
they're ready.
They have their evidence there,
there.
This is supposed to be the part where you're hearing this.
He's really crude lyrics and performance,
and they're ready to go,
and it's sort of dismantles from that point on,
that's when it starts to be looked at it.
Ah,
one used.
The word is a farce.
And it seems like the case that and even from the outside and we went approaching,
thinking it was going to be extremely dramatic.
And it started to kind of lighten up.
The mood started,
like,
almost like there's levity to it.
Um,
in that court cases,
I don't want to say that if the case didn't,
if the case didn't go the way they want,
if they were actually pronounced guilty,
that we wouldn't have wrapped today.
But it's nice we would look at that as a historical moment and see like it sets the precedent of.
Not that things haven't been challenged since,
but like,
Hey,
look,
we have something on the record that says like,
Look,
this is okay and we're going to fight with it And also like,
think about them trying to present this music and true context now,
not being able to announce it,
to read the lyrics.
And they're expecting to calls Shock and all in the courtroom.
And instead he gets giggles and laughs and,
you know,
look and it as true showman.
Yeah,
so they understand that,
and they lean into it.
Also,
we can't we can't forget their lawyer,
Mike.
Bruce Rogo is a comedic character on his own.
I'm sure you hear a little bit of that when he just like he leans into this sort of provocative tone and language that I think I don't want to categorize.
All of Miami is this,
but he's definitely a Miami character in his own right,
and I think that this is also the right place to try this music.
It comes out of the community.
You put it in a place where people are sort of familiar with this.
Maybe not even the music,
but a lifestyle.
I mean,
Miami.
If you go if you go there,
you can.
I kind of feel that energy that you feel in the records just being there as a tourist or as a fan.
So I think that everything kind of worked out in their favor.
But it is.
It's,
like,
sweet justice to figure out like,
Hey,
here's this thing that put us on your radar and you guys don't understand it.
You don't The context of the neighborhood you did not come to these clubs.
You don't understand the people or what would inspires to create this sort of like explicit music.
And then here you are,
presenting it to people that you're sure gonna be on your side and it all good blown out based on ruin,
anything you know,
or turn the party all the way upside out.
Yeah,
right.
Come in.
Ah,
yes.
So you had a clip you wanted to play.
You wanna set that up for us?
Yeah.
So the clip I want to set up for you is the sort of the creation of two live crew's banner song Me So Horny I'm rather busy.
One night,
after a recording session,
Brother marquees was in his hotel room,
flipping through TV channels on HBO.
At that time,
they were always playing the movie full metal jacket that Stanley Kubrick's movie about the Vietnam War.
And there's an infamous scene in that movie where two American soldiers were hanging out in a busy street.
They're approached by Vietnamese sex worker while Nancy Sinatra's These Boots are made for walking plays in the background.
Okay,
what do we get for $10?
Everything you want,
Everything.
What do you get?
Waste?
Thought that was funny.
What did you get for $10?
Anything you want on me.
So horny home.
That was just the most memorable part of that movie.
And it stuck with me.
And,
you know,
I would get the groupies in the room and be like,
you have me so horny.
Yeah,
marquees knew that this was the kind of catchphrase that gets stuck in your head like super glue.
And for better or worse,
it was absolutely on brand for the two live crew.
So it clicked.
This was going to make the perfect sample next,
they actually had to get their hands on the audio.
And that's where Mr Mix came in.
At the time,
there wasn't like no DVD that I could go to the store and go get four metal jacket.
We had to wait for the sit to come back on cable.
I was laying around waiting,
hoping that this movie will come back on for it to be recorded the VCR For me to be able to even get the footage for the situation you got recorded.
I took the VCR down to the studio and recorded the stuff,
offered the line out to the VCR,
run it into my machine,
sampled all her parts in this that the other what came next.
Oh,
telling Mr Mix to get Thea Music Firecracker Firecrackers,
his funk track from the seventies by a band called Mass Production.
So I just put those two things together.
Rick was already hit before the first verse was said.
I remember when he let me hear it on cassette.
I was like,
Yeah,
that's it.
So I put the lyrics to it a lot.
Booth,
Uh,
Dr,
that house not going the door.
Not having no idea what?
The night hand in store,
Uh,
having no idea what the night handed store,
or should I forgot not having no idea what Didn't I had his store.
Yeah,
but those are seven lyrics.
He had other someone lyrics.
Yes.
So that's a great clip.
Another,
um,
kind of sound of another sound design kind of virtuosic stroke there.
Um,
I love just like me,
and I want to imagine him pulling out the VCR and like,
this kind of,
you know,
kind of the ingenuity of early hip hop and just like making something out of nothing type,
you know,
vibe there.
So,
yeah,
talk about a little bit about that clip in Ah,
and why you picked it?
These clips in these moments feel like where there might be an overlap between what mobile does and what you all do it dissect in this sense of,
like,
using sound to not only set the scene,
but,
um,
be informative.
Also display an event.
Um,
it it does so much of the lifting that if we were just to read that it it would fall flat for me to just think about the amount of effort that they put in to make this hit right,
And it makes sense if you were not 19 and Condell anything off a YouTube.
But the fact that they went and saw this and had this idea and found a scene in the movie that really captured the essence of who they are,
which is me so horny and then decided to rip it and work their way backwards.
I mean,
to me,
Mr Mixes a genius.
And I think when you think about the two live crew,
ah,
Uncle looks face is the first thing you think of right he sits.
He looms large in front of everybody in Miami.
But Mr Mix,
since he created like,
another sub genre of of the culture,
a sub genre that to me is still being tapped today,
whether it's a tempo,
the used to the instrumentation in the Beats I.
I grew up just accepting this group.
The accepting ideas,
samples,
even learning that,
like the sounds,
were like cowbells.
I I had,
like a Casio keyboard as a kid,
and so I didn't know what they were ounces pressing all these things to understand that they were using established tools and new tools and new technology in a way that was really unique,
Teoh to create something new.
And I guess I'm always really intrigued.
And it's something that I feel just listening to your show.
It's like Howard,
because you really dig deep into the idea of someone creating something from nothing,
and I'm always going to be amazed at that.
I think if you create anything,
be it music,
artwork,
a podcast.
That's always the amazing thing,
cause it's all decision making.
But just the amount of leg work that they put into,
it feels like a lot now.
But honestly,
that's probably just the basics back then.
Sure,
sure,
yeah,
yeah,
and just kind of generally speaking when he kind of looked back on process of the season and where it is now and people are listening to it.
You know what?
What's the one thing that kind of stands out to you the most about the season?
Something that you'll kind always remember.
Tam,
Um,
it's a really good question,
I think for me,
um,
I really learned what it takes to just make something of this scale,
right?
Like the amount of work that goes into and just sort of the tribe of people it takes to make this thing.
I'm so used to kind of working in a silo capacity where it's like,
you know,
news and it's quick hits.
And you know,
we're doing four or five stories today and what happens in the morning is already old by noon to able to sit with story,
um,
for months on end and rework it and reshape it and have to bounce telling truth,
but also making that truth engaging and entertaining.
Uh,
takes takes a village.
I I don't know how you do it cause your crew is much smaller.
Crowd one,
Yeah,
yeah,
but you know,
getting a chance to learn off so many different people and really learn storytelling and the new capacity.
It's audio on Lee.
You know,
I'm from the video world Teoh to learn what video affords you,
and also how it can hinder you as well.
And to fill those gaps in audio and audio provides a whole other wealth of information and style is something that I'm deeply appreciative of,
and to be able to learn off people that are really smart but also like the challenges that come with it and being able to,
like,
do that first.
That first tracking session in here it with my voice sounding how it sounds raw audio,
trying to read words and shape words and know that maybe I don't sound the best and it doesn't have any engineering on it.
And those sound effects,
and we're still trying to shape the story and then to see the finished product later it sometimes I think it's weird to say,
like,
I'm proud of this,
but like I can I can stick my chest out and be like,
Yeah,
I'm proud of this.
Yeah,
yeah,
you should be it.
It's an amazing season.
It's amazing piece of art.
I feel like and it's really a document.
I feel like in the same way that a documentary can kind of go down history and just really be the source for that story.
I feel like you guys nailed it with with Miami based with two live crew.
Um,
so,
yeah,
I really appreciate you talking to me and,
ah,
for all the listeners out there.
Definitely.
Go subscribe.
Did mogul on spot of fire wherever you get your podcasts and,
uh,
we'll look out for Season three.
Thank you,
man.
I can't believe I'm on Dissect.
Thanks,
everyone for listening.
Be sure to subscribe to Mogul on Spotify,
where you can binge listen to Season two in its entirety.
You also find a number of exclusive features and extra episodes,
including a conversation between me and Brandon about my dissection of damn special thanks to the Mogul team for making today's episode possible.
Mogul is produced by Wallace Mac and C T.
John Thomas with help from Chuma.
Oh,
say mogul.
Senior producer is Matthew Nelson.
Moguls Editors.
Arlen Levy,
Caitlin Kenney and Chris Morrow sound.
Designed and mixing by Haley Shaw.
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